I try to avoid looking at fundamentalist literature too much as it depresses me (although I have an envious collection of Jack T chick tracts). But I recently came across a video by some guy who is supposed to have a voice within the emerging community. His name is Mark Driscoll. Because of this I felt I needed to make a comment. I find it hard to believe that this video is genuine and am still hoping that it is some kind of satirical joke… however there seems to be little evidence of this.
I am probably opening up a can of worms here as I hear that a lot of people take this guy seriously and that his church Mars Hill (interestingly a name that brings to mind the male God of war, whom Driscoll appears somewhat taken by) is well known. But while I may have a little bit of the hippy in me (a type of person Driscoll seems to hate with a wild passion) I am not, contrary to the spirit of the video, too afraid to say what I think when the need arises… especially when it is against a misogynistic diatribe that may be taken seriously by some.
The whole video is a winner, with lines which will make your ears bleed (especially if you are a woman – his one direct line about you is a classic), but here is a taster of some real gems,
Comparing a church closing to people being murdered in war (note how the whole thing is set in a military cemetery)
Saying that the church ought to teach men how to have sex with their wife at least once a day (as well as make money and buy a home – lets pray that kingdom comes)
Saying that we need to tell men who have ‘retarded cars’ that Jesus is not ‘a gay hippy in a dress’
‘Force’ men to become the people who God requires (Lets bring back the crusades)
Click here
Posted at 10:59 |
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Yes, it is all of those things but more than anything it strikes me as devoid of any substantive relevance. If anything its tone is medieval (crusade theology) and can we honestly see that as real for today?
Posted by: neal
on 19/06/07 at 14:50
I am sorry, Dr. Rollins, but that is for real. Check out his "Church Needs Dudes" video on YouTube. It's worse.
Posted by: Adam
on 19/06/07 at 15:14
Ahhh, yes, Mr. Driscoll, otherwise known as the cussing pastor.
I'm okay with the cussing, it's all the other words surrounding it that tend to bug me.
He's a bit of an anomoly (not that I want to speak for him, since this is just my personal observation) but he seems to be considered 'emergent' by evangelical's and considered evangelical by emergent folk.
Posted by: David
on 19/06/07 at 16:10
All the patriarchal language is really disturbing, but I'm also disturbed at how much emphasis he puts on the role of pastor. Isn't the whole point of emergent theory (i.e. emergent technology, emergent gameplay, emergent algorithms) that they DON'T require central authority or control? Doesn't the emergent church exist to escape hierarchical systems of power?
Posted by: isaaceverett
on 19/06/07 at 16:43
The thing about Driscoll is that he comes from a very strict Reformed background. He is a fine example of someone who has become ingrained with a partiular image of Jesus as a pissed off warrior (I call him "Rambo Jesus") and feels the need to impose that upon other people. He is good for those who come from a reformed-complementarian view and have never been exposed to anything outside the norm. I just wish he could learn to exercise the same grace the reformed camp talks so favorably of.
Posted by: Ryan Boyls
on 19/06/07 at 17:15
I share your disgust with Driscoll. I sometimes think there is more than one Christianity on the planet.
Posted by: tripp fuller
on 19/06/07 at 18:07
Pete, it is definitely for real. It has run the gammut in the States to be sure. Interestingly, a number of emerging church folk consider Mark a close friend and are able to move past his (apparently) frequent and embarrassing diatribes.
While I'm here, I want to tell you that, though I read a lot of books, I rarely recommend them highly to everyone. Your book, however, I do recommend to everyone I respect.
You found words and, in fact, theology, that I've been trying to grasp for years. My last post on the book was here http://www.amazon.com/How-Not-Speak-Peter-Rollins/dp/1557255059, but I've made several posts on your writing. Thank you!
Posted by: cindy
on 20/06/07 at 02:41
Long time reader, first time poster. I hear you Pete! Anytime I've blogged about him on the Sanctus1 site, we get a huge peak of hits (and sometimes abusive comments with it) ...so forewarned and all that. Glad you're speaking up too - as a woman, obviously my voice doesn't count... ;-)
Posted by: LauraHD
on 20/06/07 at 13:27
Let's force everyone in posession of a penis to drive an SUV.
Better still we'll fit ploughs to the front of the SUVs to get rid of all the "gay cars" on the road.
I'm suprised/appalled at this, more for the fact that some really decent people seem to hang out with this guy.
I really hope he's being ironic.
Posted by: Mike R
on 20/06/07 at 20:38
Yeah, that's pretty reprehensible. But not, unfortunately, as bad as this: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=720_1179383603
Posted by: Mike Morrell
on 20/06/07 at 21:06
Welcome to American Christianity.
So funny yet at the same time heartbreaking.
Posted by: Michael
on 22/06/07 at 02:11
welcome to american christianity.
so funny, yet so heartbreaking.
Posted by: michael o'neill
on 22/06/07 at 02:12
A surprising, somewhat distressing video... I'm not sure what I can agree with. That said, I'm almost certain that Jesus would have been a fan of the Spice Girls.
Posted by: Jeff
on 22/06/07 at 21:37
I don't think he was being satirical at all ... i think he just showed what a big dush he is. Come on banging your girlfriend and trying to put in a retarded subwoofer in you car??? are you kidding me? who talks like that unless they are philistines who watch football on sunday morning. On another note emergent inc. it's really really a disgusting enterprise that exploits spirituality for profit. (just my opinion)
Posted by: pablo ko
on 23/06/07 at 02:13
I don't think he was being satirical at all ... i think he just showed what a big dush he is. Come on banging your girlfriend and trying to put in a retarded subwoofer in you car??? are you kidding me? who talks like that unless they are philistines who watch football on sunday morning. On another note emergent inc. it's really really a disgusting enterprise that exploits spirituality for profit. (just my opinion)
Posted by: pablo ko
on 23/06/07 at 02:13
Hey Pete
Always enjoy the blog. One thing I would love to hear your thoughts on is a concern that I have at times about the fundamentalist groups. I want to criticize their thinking and in many ways feel it is justified. However, at other times, I sense that they have incredible support from the bible. This often doesn't lend more credence to their view for me as much as it starts to undermine the authority of the Bible as a text. I find that I don't want this to be the case, but it seems to happen.
I was having a conversation the other day with a friend about the need for a dialectic between the Bible and culture. I was trying to say that when this doesn't happen we land on fundamentalism on one hand, or complete disregard for the wisdom of tradition on the other. We agreed that the Bible can inform culture, but I was additionally trying to say that our current understandings or culture can inform the Bible as well. As an example, how questions of how our current understanding of mind and body from neuroscience, psychology and philosophy of mind differ from Biblical understanding, and considering its implications for theological thought. My friend pushed back on this point, not on my argument exactaly, but I think more for what the "implications" of this type of thinking could have for our beliefs re: the bible. In other words, she may have felt that this would just lead us down a road where there is no authority, complete relativism, when we are caught up in cultural movements, etc etc. I think that is what these types of thinkers (i.e. the video you noted about) would think re: our "new" understandings about women, homosexuality, etc... that they are just deviations away from the text. The part that concerns me is that in many ways they are right from a biblical perspective (movement away from the justification of slavery for example required a somewhat selective reading), so what are the implications of that for our own thinking... is that a distinct movement away from Christian thought?
Posted by: PB
on 24/06/07 at 15:25
Hi Peter,
I live in the same state (Washington) as Mark Driscoll but on the other side. I have a hard time with many of the things he says and often feel sick to my stomach after watching one of his videos.
Sadly this "church planting" video is not a joke nor some lame attempt at satire. He believes everything that he spewed out.
I don't always know how to deal with Mark Driscoll... he claims to be a part of the emerging conversation yet sits around with John Piper and John MacArthur (I bet Mark Driscoll loved MacArthur's newest book called "The Truth War" since he seems to enjoy war and violence).
Mark Driscoll frustrates and confuses me, he's some sort of strange hybrid: One part emerging, one part fundamentalist, and one part military commander. I wish he wouldn't call himself "emerging" because he is giving those in my State a strange picture of the "emerging church".
Peter how would you classify Mark Driscoll? How do you feel about his desire to call himself "emerging"?
Peace (be) with you,
Ike
Posted by: Ike
on 25/06/07 at 17:01
Driscoll is as bad as it gets, I think he is more a trendy megachurch voice than anything in an 'emerging voice'.
Want to dislike the guy even more. . . here is a quote that he gave after the whole Ted Haggard problem here in the states -
âIt is not uncommon to meet pastorsâ wives who really let themselves go; they sometimes feel that because their husband is a pastor, he is therefore trapped into fidelity, which gives them cause for laziness . . . A wife who lets herself go and is not sexually available to her husband in the ways that the Song of Songs is so frank about is not responsible for her husbandâs sin, but she may not be helping him either. Did you catch that? When a married pastor falls to sexual temptation, it may be the wifeâs fault for letting herself go.â
This guy is a jerk.
Posted by: Nicholas
on 25/06/07 at 18:23
Here is a link to said quote
http://theresurgence.com/md_blog_2006-11-03_evangelical_leader_quits
Posted by: Nicholas
on 25/06/07 at 18:27
Fun isn't it! Yes, lets bring back the crusades, I've nothing on this summer. Not so much emerging as re-emerging the wheel.
Posted by: neal
on 26/06/07 at 12:12
Oh dear.
Firstly I'm disappointed that this came out of Mars Hill because i do quite like Rob Bell. I really and truly hope that Mark Driscoll is just an incredibly bad communicator and doesn't actually mean what he is saying. Somehow I doubt it though...
As for his attitude to women:
"I'm glad that the ladies love Jesus" How patronising! Never mind the follow up comment of "if you want to win a war you've got to get the men"!! What about all those women who are "good, called, competent, capable and qualified" just like the men he is looking for?
I need to stop there, he's making me cross.
Perhaps I should email him my dissertation....
Posted by: Pam
on 26/06/07 at 20:30
Hi, I'm really interested in becoming involved with Ikon. I've looked at the Ikon Wiki site, but I can't find any contact details for the leaders of Ikon. Could you help with out with some details. I would really appreciate it. Thanks.
Posted by: spirituality2007
on 02/07/07 at 22:22
Hey Pete
Again, love your book and your blog. It has really forced me to take a critical / loving approach to my theological/ philosophical beliefs and the impact on my behavior.
Would love your thought on a thing or two if you had a moment, even though its a bit unrelated to this post. I was grabbing a drink with a friend last night and she mentioned how she had two friends that were moving to a new area of the country and had decided to live together (they are dating). She felt that this was in disagreement with God and was not reflecting his face to the world. She asked me what she should say to her friend. I had a hard time knowing how to react to that. First off, I think 4 or 5 years ago I would have been in sharp disagreement with their behavior and would have brought something up. However, last night, I felt myself wanting to understand their situation more and where they were coming from/ to what extent it was destructive or loving. I had a hard time coming down "convicted" on the issue. Now, a few things come to mind with this. First off, part of me wants to say my thoughts on the issue came from wanting to see their perspective more, and realizing that static laws often do not equate with the love that people think comes with it. I.e. they may have a better relationship living together then two individuals who are engaged or married. However, another part of me (probably from my background) feels like I am copping out on the Biblical notions of the "loving relationship" as embodied in marriage, and my reaction is "relativistic" and cowardly.
As related to the post, guys like the one from Mars Hill above speak with a certain conviction that appeals to individuals (though apparently not to you or me). I on the other hand tried to understand the situation a bit more, but feel like that leaves a tension with "convictions" i have been raised in in the past. In essense, I essentially feel a tension with my intuition and logic, and I am sure my Christian friends would see me slipping down a slope towards "godlessness" and "relativism"
Does that make any sense? Have you experience some of these same thoughts... or related experiences?
Posted by: peter
on 18/07/07 at 16:51
This is tame compared to some of the stuff that crosses my desk. Then again, the US Emergent Church isn't exactly filled with women leaders.
Posted by: becky
on 26/07/07 at 13:13
Skimmed the comments again (it's easier to do on laptop versus a mobile phone0. There's a point on the comments that needs to be clarified - Rob Bell is the Founding Pastor of Mars Hill Bible Church (Grandvill, MI - near Grand Rapids, MI home of Zondervan and Baker Books). I've never met him personally but my good buddy Shane Claiborne speaks very highly of him and that speaks volumes in my book. Mark Driscoll's Mars Hill Church is in Seattle. Given the role of Mars Hill in the New Testament, it would make sense that more than one church plant would bear the same name. BTW-Mark functions in the same role of Ann Coulter - they both say comments that MANY other people are thinking and don't have the guts to say.
Posted by: Becky
on 27/07/07 at 04:27
I've seen way too much of Driscoll... and indeed he is in Seattle. He is doing an (looks like emerging) bate and switch. He is intentional in the deception and should be called on it. How sad!
Posted by: James54
on 02/08/07 at 18:52
This just crossed my desk - seems to fit with the above posting. Enjoy ...the posting David did after this one is pretty funny as well ...
http://davewainscott.blogspot.com/2007/08/missional-chicksemerging-girl-apostles.html
Posted by: becky
on 03/08/07 at 00:55
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